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#1 2007-05-31 16:51:20

forsmarts
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From: Minsk
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 195
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Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

Some competitions (like Russian Puzzle Championship) involve the solution of manipulative puzzles. Sometimes it considerably affects the results. I'm not good at such puzzles and I always fall down the top of the table smile At the other hand, someone who is poor at the WPC-like puzzles but has quick hands and good imagination can climb too high. What do you think about it?

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#2 2007-05-31 17:02:13

CrazyPuzzler
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Registered: 2007-05-30
Posts: 19

Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

Manipulative puzzles is one of the puzzles type and if competition called "Puzzle chamionship" then competitors must can solve any type of puzzles. For example I cannot understand how to solve battleships puzzle - may be it's need to exclude this puzzle from chamionships Some puzzlers have weak eyesight - it's need to prohibit puzzle "Find the differences?
Manipulative puzzles require logic more than quick hands. May be you do not understand this - then you should train manipulative puzzles. They have many standard way for solving. Try do not stupidly rotate the puzzle - try to ponder over it.

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#3 2007-05-31 17:10:26

forsmarts
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From: Minsk
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 195
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

Thanks for your opinion, Crazy! Maybe I should train more with this kind of puzzles. Let's wait what another puzzlers will say about it.
Speaking about "Find the differences" puzzles - yep, I'd surely prohibit it smile

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#4 2007-05-31 17:22:09

CrazyPuzzler
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Registered: 2007-05-30
Posts: 19

Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

forsmarts wrote:

Speaking about "Find the differences" puzzles - yep, I'd surely prohibit it smile

Hm. And what about battleships?
May be it's better to prohibit all puzzles type and leave only one? I think it will be very interesting - 100 puzzlesr during three days solve only simple skyscrapers, for example. smile

I think all puzzle types must be presented on championships. And you may choose those of them which are prefered for you. But if you want to be a champion - you must solve all (or nearly all).

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#5 2007-05-31 17:49:25

T-Bag
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From: Panama
Registered: 2007-05-30
Posts: 26
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

The word you're desperately looking for is VERSATILITY!


What do you say to that, Pretty?

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#6 2007-05-31 20:59:03

FlinK
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From: Praha, Czech Rep.
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 56
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

There's a saying that goes something like "You are as many times a person, as many languages you know".

Putting it another way - You are as many times a puzzler as many different kinds of puzzles you can solve!

Last edited by FlinK (2007-05-31 20:59:18)


Mam w sobie zwierza!!! Ale ten zwierz... Leniwiec.

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#7 2007-06-19 12:17:09

forsmarts
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From: Minsk
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 195
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

One more thing to illustrate my point: champion of the past Russian PC Riad Khanmagomedov earned 0 points during the mechanical (manipulative) part. I solved 1 puzzle out of 4, the best result was 3 out of 4. I appreciate the fact that this year the points for this part were comparable with the the points for actual WPC-style puzzles, so you couldn't lose anything you have earned for 3 hours of hard thinking during the half-hour.

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#8 2007-06-19 13:08:18

Andrey Bogdanov
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From: Moscow
Registered: 2007-05-30
Posts: 355
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

forsmarts wrote:

One more thing to illustrate my point: champion of the past Russian PC Riad Khanmagomedov earned 0 points during the mechanical (manipulative) part.

I don't understand why this thing illustrates your point. It's only particular unlack of one person. On last puzzle championship the champion (Ultich Voigt) got only 45 points in first round and this was about forty place in this round - but nobody says: "the first round is out of scope".
I have more impartial (I think) approach: I divided the whole chamionship to equal parts (each has four-five puzzles and max is 80-100 points) and found correlation between results on one part and total results.
Unfortunatly, complete results are not published yet. But I can give you the final values:
Correlation between results on puzzles 1-4 of first round and totals is 0,78
-"- puzzles 5-9 of first round and totals is 0,79
-"- puzzles 1-4 of second round and totals is 0,58
-"- puzzles 5-8 of second round and totals is 0,67
-"- puzzles 9-12 of second round and totals is 0,68
-"- third round and totals is 0,79
-"- manipulative puzzles and totals is 0,66

You may see - the manipulative round is not worst then others. In general it reflects overall puzzlers strength.

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#9 2007-06-19 13:51:03

forsmarts
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From: Minsk
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 195
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

Mathematics is the great stuff, I'm sure that the amount of drunk beer (hi, Flink) would correlate fine with the total results as well. I'm talking about the fact that this type differs too much with WPC-style puzzles. OK, let's go from the other side. I'm not too much into usual Sudoku, CrazyPuzzler has a bad feeling about battleships, you have dislikes too. And we all do love puzzles! And we can also manipulate wooden pieces (with the different success though). But all the constructors of manipulative puzzles that I know can hardly say that they like or even can solve WPC-style puzzles at all. The same concerns crosswords and other intellectual games which, I hope, will never show up at the puzzle championships smile

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#10 2007-06-19 15:20:15

Andrey Bogdanov
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From: Moscow
Registered: 2007-05-30
Posts: 355
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

forsmarts wrote:

I'm talking about the fact that this type differs too much with WPC-style puzzles.

Ok. This type differ. But optimization puzzles is also differ with battleships and find differences differ with sudoku. We have many different kinds of puzzles. Some of this kinds you join together and call "WPC-like". But I think it voluntary decision. You also may include some puzzles to WPC-like category or exclude from.
May be it's time to formalize content of chamionship and enumerate all puzzle types acceptable for chamionship. I think it's general way to transform puzzlesolving to real sport (as well as now we have obligatory program in figure skating). But now I like puzzles for unpredictability.

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#11 2007-06-19 16:49:06

forsmarts
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From: Minsk
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 195
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

Andrey Bogdanov wrote:

But now I like puzzles for unpredictability.

OK, would you like to solve trivia, crosswords, play checkers or bridge during the championship? It would be really unpredictable to meet them at puzzlesport competition, wouldn't it? And don't you say that manipulative puzzles have the word "puzzle" in the title and that's why it must be at puzzle championships.
I don't want to say (and never said) that manipulative puzzles are bad or something. I do like them and I'm gathering the collection of them. All I'm saying that probably they don't fit the format of face-to-face puzzle championship, as many other puzzles don't fit it, for example, Sudoku 25x25 smile

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#12 2007-06-19 16:59:18

FlinK
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From: Praha, Czech Rep.
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 56
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

Guys, you've lost me!

Could you clearly reformulate what you're arguing about? wink

By the by, we still don't know what "puzzle" is, let alone a "manipulative puzzle"! big_smile


Mam w sobie zwierza!!! Ale ten zwierz... Leniwiec.

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#13 2007-06-19 17:05:51

forsmarts
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From: Minsk
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 195
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

FlinK wrote:

Could you clearly reformulate what you're arguing about? wink

I'm telling about which puzzles imho fit face-to-face puzzle championships. I hope Andrey's doing the same thing.

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#14 2007-06-19 17:12:03

FlinK
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From: Praha, Czech Rep.
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 56
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

forsmarts, and you affirm that they are NOT good for this kind of competition, right?

Is it because of time limits? Or why else?


Mam w sobie zwierza!!! Ale ten zwierz... Leniwiec.

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#15 2007-06-19 17:18:02

Andrey Bogdanov
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From: Moscow
Registered: 2007-05-30
Posts: 355
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

forsmarts wrote:

I'm telling about which puzzles imho fit face-to-face puzzle championships. I hope Andrey's doing the same thing.

Yes, in this case I agree with you.

But I don't agree with you when you want to restrict the puzzles type. I lilke to work with different puzzles.

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#16 2007-06-19 17:22:08

FlinK
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From: Praha, Czech Rep.
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 56
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

Andrey Bogdanov, the need to define "puzzle" is more and more important! smile

Without a good and universally accepted definition one cannot "restrict the puzzles type" efficiently. Otherwise crosswords may one day become part of WPC, and I don't think they belong there!


Mam w sobie zwierza!!! Ale ten zwierz... Leniwiec.

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#17 2007-06-19 18:27:05

forsmarts
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From: Minsk
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 195
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

FlinK wrote:

forsmarts, and you affirm that they are NOT good for this kind of competition, right?

Is it because of time limits? Or why else?

Actually, I denied it because the scoring for this kind of puzzles on previous RPC was obviously wrong. For example, 50 points were given for solving of the manipulative puzzle within 10 minutes. And to get 50 points during the first parts, where the usual puzzles were given, you had to spend 20 and more minutes. I don't think that this part can affect the final results so much. But as I told, this year it was much more adequate. And I put the accent on the fact that even getting 0 points at this part Riad managed to become the champion.

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#18 2007-06-19 21:23:40

FlinK
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From: Praha, Czech Rep.
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 56
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

forsmarts, so nothing's wrong with m.puzzles per se, they just need to be assigned adequate points, right?

Well, the same holds for all types of puzzles! smile


Mam w sobie zwierza!!! Ale ten zwierz... Leniwiec.

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#19 2007-06-19 21:25:28

jhrdina
Member
Registered: 2007-06-03
Posts: 42

Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

I do not think we can exclude any puzzle from WPC-like category. I've seen some puzzles from WPC in Oulu and many of them were manipulative. Regularly I can see puzzles based on chess or other games and also some types of crosswords. The only thing that disqualifies normal crosswords is the language sensitivity. If you get the list of words, you can combine them in crossword and it's logical puzzle. If you get the list of synonyms, it is crossword.
But an interesting issue is calibrations of the points from different puzzles. I am always frustrated when I get few points for a difficult puzzle just to find out that another puzzle would give me more points for less work.
Do you have any method for points calibration? What I tried is to solve the puzzles myself and base the points on my time of solving, but it is very subjective.

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#20 2007-06-19 21:29:02

FlinK
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From: Praha, Czech Rep.
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 56
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

jhrdina, a way of overcoming this difficulty could be to have the puzzles solved by several puzzlers who are strong in different types. And then - assigning some (weighted?) average.


Mam w sobie zwierza!!! Ale ten zwierz... Leniwiec.

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#21 2007-06-20 01:27:29

forsmarts
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From: Minsk
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 195
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

jhrdina, distribution of the points to the puzzles is never easy work. I always use the same way as you do - solve everything by myself and then rate them by difficulty. Flink's way implies additional puzzlers (which don't want to participate themselves) and I don't have them.

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#22 2007-06-20 01:49:20

FlinK
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From: Praha, Czech Rep.
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 56
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Re: Manipulative puzzles at the puzzlesport competitions

forsmarts wrote:

jhrdina, distribution of the points to the puzzles is never easy work. I always use the same way as you do - solve everything by myself and then rate them by difficulty. Flink's way implies additional puzzlers (which don't want to participate themselves) and I don't have them.

My proposition is definitely more time- and people-consuming smile, but it ensures better points allocation.


Mam w sobie zwierza!!! Ale ten zwierz... Leniwiec.

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