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#1 2007-05-31 12:05:46

Andrey Bogdanov
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From: Moscow
Registered: 2007-05-30
Posts: 355
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Do you like optimization puzzles?

In the results of ipst-competitions I see the poor percents for optimization puzzles in best/worst voting. And such situation is for all rounds. Why does this occur? Is this puzzles really bad, or most of puzzlers do not like the optimization puzzles at all? Which features need to be for good optimization puzzles?

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#2 2007-05-31 14:45:36

FlinK
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From: Praha, Czech Rep.
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 56
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Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

Could you please give some examples?

Preferably, from forsmarts.com website! big_smile


Mam w sobie zwierza!!! Ale ten zwierz... Leniwiec.

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#3 2007-05-31 14:52:44

Andrey Bogdanov
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From: Moscow
Registered: 2007-05-30
Posts: 355
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Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

Could you please give some examples?

Three optimization puzzles was in issue 10:
http://forsmarts.com/eng/puzzles/10.html

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#4 2007-05-31 15:28:20

forsmarts
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From: Minsk
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 195
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Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

Here's another example for you (taken from 6th Open Belarussian Puzzle Championship):

Hexa - 6
http://www.forsmarts.com/forum/img/puzzles/hexa6.gif
Fill some cells with digits or arithmetic signs (+, -, *, /) so that in rows and diagonals in any direction as many as possible of valid expressions were formed. Expression is valid if there are no signs that aren't used in exression (but numbers can start with "+" or "-") and its result is 6 (in example - 66). All empty cells are ignored. Order of operations is usual: first multiplication and division, then addition and subtraction. Numbers in valid expressions cannot start with "0". Sets of numbers used in valid expressions cannot be repeated.
Example:
http://www.forsmarts.com/forum/img/puzzles/hexa6_e.gif

Best solution was 12 valid expressions (at the online version of BPC only 11!). Can you repeat this result or make it better?

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#5 2007-05-31 16:50:30

T-Bag
Member
From: Panama
Registered: 2007-05-30
Posts: 26
Website

Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

Hm...


What do you say to that, Pretty?

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#6 2007-06-01 23:28:25

wicktroll
New member
From: Debrecen, Hungary
Registered: 2007-06-01
Posts: 6

Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

I don't like optimization puzzles. I'm always happy, when I find a solution, but my happiness always turns to sadness, because it's not the best solution smile.

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#7 2007-06-02 11:41:43

forsmarts
Administrator
From: Minsk
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 195
Website

Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

Of all the puzzlers I know I believe Tomoaki Tokunaga is the best solver of optimization puzzles! I hope he will show up on this forum and explain us how he does it smile

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#8 2007-06-03 15:34:17

tim
New member
Registered: 2007-06-03
Posts: 7

Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

I think the answer is simple.  Like most people (I assume), I work full time, and therefore have limited time for puzzles.  If I solve one in half-an-hour, great!  If I solve one in 3 hours, still OK!  But with optimization puzzles, I can spend many hours and still be fairly sure that there are better solutions out there.....so if I have (say) 4 hours available for a puzzle, how can I compete with someone who has 24 hours?  Still, this does not mean they are bad puzzles.....

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#9 2007-06-03 19:25:07

jhrdina
Member
Registered: 2007-06-03
Posts: 42

Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

I basically like optimization puzzles, but I am also frustrated to find that my solution is far from the best one. I feel much better if I can at least guess what is the maximum achievable number of points. Just in case I am lucky enough to find it I do not have to waiste further time on it.
And I really do not like optimization puzzles with millions of possible solutions and no clear strategy. Then it is not a logic puzzle, just combination of hard work and pure luck.

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#10 2007-06-03 19:35:14

T-Bag
Member
From: Panama
Registered: 2007-05-30
Posts: 26
Website

Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

jhrdina, "combination of hard work and pure luck" is just a kind of brute force. A GOOD optimization puzzle must have a well-defined strategy (this in no case should mean that the strategy is obvious!). (Kind of plot twist... big_smile )

May be you're stuck with the o.p. that are just not the good ones? smile


What do you say to that, Pretty?

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#11 2007-06-04 10:44:40

forsmarts
Administrator
From: Minsk
Registered: 2007-05-29
Posts: 195
Website

Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

As any other puzzle, o.p. can be given in face-to-face competition, with the tight time limit, and in some week-or-longer-lasted contest. I have made o.puzzles for both and in both cases there were people who liked it and hated it (based on the result smile ). What can I say? As I don't admire manipulative puzzles in face-to-face competitions (but LOVE them in common!), anyone can have his own opinion about any kind of puzzles smile OK, I suggest anyone to give here examples of the GOOD o.p. (I mean, the ones you liked to solve in some contest). That'll give a great ground for discussion.

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#12 2007-06-04 12:42:37

T-Bag
Member
From: Panama
Registered: 2007-05-30
Posts: 26
Website

Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

This is what I'd call a good puzzle.

http://www.pzzls.com/images/stippen2.gif

It's very simple (and may be not an OPTIMIZATION puzzle per se smile ), but to solve it, one must think outside of the box.


What do you say to that, Pretty?

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#13 2007-06-04 14:08:07

Andrey Bogdanov
Administrator
From: Moscow
Registered: 2007-05-30
Posts: 355
Website

Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

T-Bag wrote:

This is what I'd call a good puzzle.

Yes, this is a good thing, but it is not quite a puzzlle. I can say it'a a riddle. Puzzle must require logic not a guess or imagination.
And this is not an optimization puzzle at all.
Sometimes riddles are included to the puzzles competition, but they cannot be main part of competition.

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#14 2007-06-04 23:49:15

jhrdina
Member
Registered: 2007-06-03
Posts: 42

Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

Good source of nice o.p. is the German optimizing championship (http://opti.logic-masters.de/en/ ).

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#15 2007-06-05 09:36:50

Andrey Bogdanov
Administrator
From: Moscow
Registered: 2007-05-30
Posts: 355
Website

Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

The post with puzzles of Ukrainian championship is moved to new topic

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#16 2007-06-05 19:56:16

rakesh_rai
Member
Registered: 2007-06-02
Posts: 18

Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

German Logic Masters also has a monthly optimizer competition. (http://www.logic-masters.de/index.php?page=m_juni2007). It is in German but can be understood. The good part is that updated scores are displayed so you know where you stand.

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#17 2010-12-14 07:45:07

Basil
New member
From: USA
Registered: 2010-12-03
Posts: 4

Re: Do you like optimization puzzles?

I liked optimization puzzles lot ....... Thanks to share all information about puzzles .
Thanks .

Last edited by Basil (2010-12-18 07:32:39)

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